Posted -: 11:47:40From another thread I thought I'd try anew.June 1978 Pickin' magazine has Jim Bollman's Fairbanks Vega Serial Numberdating chart.In the chart Bollman lists a Fairbanks-Vega Imperial Electric tenor banjo ca 1912with a serial number 28473.Does anyone have a photo of F-V 28473 or know where it is?Does anyone have a F-V circular/catalog from 1912 that depictsthe F-V tenor banjo offerings.Does anyone have a ca 1912 Vega magazine or newspaper adthat describes their tenor banjo in words or photos or drawings.I would certainly appreciate the help.John. Posted -: 03:57:17Shamrock: Thank you for the links. The Vega catalog has beendescribed as 1910-1912 but it seems no one knows exactly. I havea reprint copy of it at home. It has no tenor banjos listed. Oddly, ithas a 'banjorine' which is the name Schall called his 4 string long neckbanjo-mandolin. Vega's 'banjorine' is a banjeaurine.
So, when doingresearch in text without pictures or drawings you never know exactlywhat is being described by the author. There was much innovationand hybrid banjo types being developed, cataloged and advertised 1880-1915!! Posted -: 06:48:57beezaboy,You must know about the following banjo (possibly of interest even if not the one you seek in this thread) since it was listed on the Smakula Fretted Instruments site last November.But just in case, here is the description:1912 Griffin Peghead Fairbanks-Vega Whyte Laydie Tenor Banjo.
Fairbanks Morse serial number location Got my new acquition home and can't find the serial number on it. Its a 20 hp model Z It has several layers of old paint i looked at the ends of the crank and theres only 1 tag on it that i can find thanks.
Though not stamped with a model designation, this banjo is what would be later cataloged as style R. This example has the natural blond maple finish on the neck and rim.
The neck has a 21' scale fretboard with engraved mother of pearl inlays (the same as a #2 Whyte Laydie five string) and the engraved griffin on the peghead. The short scale along with the 10-3/4' diameter rim makes this a sweet early tenor to play. Currently set up in Jazz tuning (CGDA), but we are willing to set it up in Irish tuning (GDAE) on request at no additional charge. In better that very good condition, our price on this rare early tenor is $1,750 and includes an appropriate period hard case.PGEdited by - pgroff on 06:49:58. Posted -: 08:04:38John, go to this website and contact steve, he has original catalogs andsuch on all Fairbanks- Fairbank-Vega and Vega and all related info, he is a wealth of info, I believehe even has a 1912 tenor pot for sale now and might still have the neck. He has compiled a ton ofphotos on all such banjos old and new alike, he is a very nice person to deal with, I purchased three pot pot from him in the past. It was back in the very early 1980's I got the 1912 Whyte Laydie From old friend Jim DeCava of DeCava custom guitars The neck was in rough shape and all I can remember was I wanted the pearl work saved and have the gryphon put into the headstock and that to was badly deteriorated,for a five string conversion.
So I don't have the neck to the tenoreither. If you need any further info you can contact Jimmy his website is Jimmy is a walking encyclopedia on Fairbanks-Vega and really anything of the great Boston banjo era. Here is something I bet you did'nt know, he was one of the late ray aldens favorite banjo luthiers in fact he built over 330 banjos for Ray over a thirtyfive year period. And as far as I am concerned his workmanship is impeccable not to forget just a great person to. I hope this helps.Jim. Posted -: 06:50:53quote:Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe. Look at this Tubaphone De Luxe short scale tenor with an extended fretboardand especially her serial number.To me the SN is 27930 - if correct this should indicate a 1911 build.Hi Polle -Zooming-in on the serial number, the 1st digit appears to be a double-strike.But it is DEFINITELY a '4'.
The 4th digit is a '2'. So the serial is actually - 47920That definitely corresponds to the neck's heel shape, carving-style, and engravingstyle - which are all late-'teens, early-'20s.
As is the all of the detailing on the rim.Very NICE custom banjo, though. I've had 3 or 4 Style X No. 9s over the years, andthey are an absolute favorite of mine.Best-Ed BrittEdited by - BrittDLD1 on 06:58:27.
Posted -: 08:31:24Polle and Ed.Thanks guys for humoring me and my obsession with theFirst Tenor Banjo. I have been researching. Got some microfilm reels ofthe Cadenza from the Library of Congress and have been wading thruthem. A nugget here and tidbit there but its progress!AND, OH HO!!!I just bought the Fairbanks-Vega tenor from Bob Smakula that Paul put me on to!Serial Number on rim and dowel - 28060!!! No strike overs or quivering handson the stamp. Clear as the moon! Whyte Laydie tone ring.David day bracket band.4 string No Knot.engraved position markers.AND Gryphon on the headstock.
Previous owner put on geared planets or she'd be in a museum.(Well, it's sort of in a museum now.)NOW.we need a Tenor Banjo-Mandola! Please see my BHO Wanted ad.Bacon offered one in its 1913-1914 catalog reprint (Forest Dale) on page 8.Please keep your eyes peeled.Thanks again, Paul, for the Fairbanks-Vega tenor alert!Best,John. Posted -: 09:07:42beezaboy wrote:Thanks again, Paul, for the Fairbanks-Vega tenor alert!beezaboy,Great news, I hoped that might work out for you and Bob.Re: the 4-string version of the no-knot. Is it known exactly when they were first manufactured?If not, we might need to be cautious about considering that TP original to the banjo. Especially since the tuners were switched I think you ought to bear in mind the possibility that the tailpiece was too.
From my inquiries here on the hangout, it seems that prewar 4-string no-knots are a lot less sought-after than are pre-war 5-string no-knots. Most tenor players don't like that general kind of tailpiece but some 5-string players do (and some of them value the appearance or supposed durability of the prewar version). My 'Patent Applied For' early Yosco tenor came to me 'from the attic' with all its original period stuff, had never been re-worked, and that had an original 5-string no-knot. I am thinking the 4-string no-knot may have been unavailable (or less available) at the time that Yosco was made. The same may have been true at the time your new-to-you Vega was made.
If your early Vega tenor had been sold with a 5-string no-knot, it might have seemed not only clever but logical to a later owner (especially a recent owner) to switch the valuable 5-string TP for a vintage 4-string TP and sell the 5-string one separately.PGEdited by - pgroff on 09:21:07. Posted -: 10:19:30Paul:Good point on the tailpiece. The one on F-V 28060 is a No Knot'Pat Nov 19 1901'Bob Smakula thought it an original.The tailpiece is very shiny.could be a later or even a repro.but all hardware on banjo is pretty shiny except the hookswhich many have lost their nickle.BTW My Yosco Colossus came with a 4 post No Knot same as the Vega'Pat Nov 19 1901'The Yosco No Knot is a little more tarnished and one of the pegs has lostone half.JohnEdited by - beezaboy on 10:25:35. Posted -: 20:27:24quote:Originally posted by beezaboyFYI - A few images of F-V #28060Front:Peghead:Dowel:Hi Beeze.It looks as if it has a crack running down the center of the peghead veneer.That can be a sign of 'center rot'.
The dyed center veneer of the neck startsto disintegrate, apparently due to the caustic dye process used to make it.Check the center seam on back side of the peghead, with good light and amagnifying loupe - to see if there is a fine hairline crack running lengthwisethrough the center of the black veneer.It's actually a quite common problem with 'pre-fire' Fairbanks, but not as commonduring this period. It can be stabilized from cracking farther, with cyanoacrylate -but that doesn't doesn't stop the internal chemical reaction from continuing.Hopefully not. But it's better halt the progress sooner than later.
(I've seen somec1895-1904 necks which were completely in pieces due to it. They were successfullyrestored, but was an expensive and involved process.)Very nice example of an early F-V tenor.Best-Ed BrittPS - Hmmm. Hard to tell from the photo.
Does it have a notched tension hoop,or a grooved tension hoop? The switchover from grooved to notched, was aroundlate-24xxx and early 25,xxx. It would be late for having a grooved hoop.Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 20:42:18.
So I stumbled upon this site and was hoping to find some answers. I currently have the opportunity to acquire a 20' drill press for the price of $200 obo.
I do not have much experience or knowledge about antique machines. I am attracted to the design and the thought of having something vintage as part of my arsenal would be pretty awesome. As far as I can tell the gears look good and everything operates smoothly. The previous owner fabricated a plate to mount a motor to run the machine (currently has no motor attached or available). I have Googled the company had found some stuff here and there but nothing that pertained specificly to this model. If anyone on here has knowledge about this company or type of drill press please fill me in.
Is it worth 150-200 bucks? I can go out and buy a new drill press but this one is cool So anything would help.
Just post away guys and gals. Welcome to the club! You sound like a 'keeper of the flame' so you're certainly welcome here.I'm not that familiar with 'Fairbanks' as a maker of anything other than scales, but I wouldn't put much of anything past them either. What you have appears to be a knock-off copy of my 21' Excelsior Royersford (or maybe visa-versa?) all the way down to the ratchet/hand grip on the pull down handle.Pay $150-200 for this? Question is - how many others would pay - and can you get it for less.
Money cash in hand speaks MP3 disks full, and the capability for the buyer to move WITHOUT help from the seller is generally worth an hours labor, figure $50 off the selling price.Actually, the $150 isn't a bad price if it is all there and relatively undamaged/unmodified. Look for the 'arc of shame' on the table (table swings under the drill quill and unrespecting operators drill through the stock and right into the top of the table before they realize it. Eventually the entire table has 'pock-marks' across it in an arc - or worse.) The arc of shame can be fixed, or at least made usable, but it is probably the single most frequent defect of these drill types.Check the quill for tightness.
Some can be tightened to improve this aspect (some can't), but it's certainly something you can point to in an effort to lower the asking price.Got drill arbors and chucks? A couple of sizes are nice but not essential.
Also, generally you want a morse taper 3, 4 or even 5 in the quill. Smaller than that and you have to temper your work size accordingly.
If it's a REALLY old drill, you may find something other than morse taper, but these are pretty few and far between these days. Generally if a drill doesn't have a morse taper, it didn't last too long in most shops after the American Civil War.Spare large drills, even drills broken off (they can be re-sharpened) are always nice and should be thrown in since they're all probably too large for the seller to use after selling off the sole machine in the shop that can drive them. You want to be sure to ask as this is something frequently forgotten in the heat of transaction.And don't forget chuck keys. More a bother to find the right one that fits afterwards if you're missing it.If this drill has a 'speed reduction' in the upper shaft (I think it does) then this improves it's attractiveness to you - and your seller is unlikely to know of the attraction.
With speed reduction in the upper shaft, you could possibly drill up to 2' in solid steel plate, maybe even 2-1/2'.Of course this will all take time and plenty of lubricant - and possibly a pilot hole. But watching the drill go around and occasionally dripping a little lubricant on it is pleasant and satisfying work. And listening to the rhythm of the machine, the flip, flip, flip of the belt scarf passing over the pulleys is most relaxing - and can be done while sitting and listening to the Saturday afternoon Metropolitan Opera on NPR. And later you can go in and tell the wife how much you did out in the shop - you even drilled two holes 2-1/2' in a 1' steel plate - see?Ask me how I know this.At $150 and good usable condition, you stole it.Joe.
Helpful discussion, Joe. But I guess you might not have seen the photographs, as 1), you can see the back gears (ie speed reduction) in the photographs and can also see the table is well drill pecked. I'd buy the machine anyhow, of course. Huyzel, you can see the power feed pulleys in the photographs.I might be a little confused as to the relation between the Fairbanks company of St. Johnsbury, Vermont-the scale makers-and the Fairbanks company that issued huge hardbound catalogs of machine tools.
But I am pretty sure that the latter company-whose name is cast in this drill press-was a Fairbanks-Morse company and not closely related to the scale makers. Fairbanks Co. And Fairbanks-Morse are two unrelated companies. Fairbanks-Morse produced the scales and a line of single cylinder 'hit and miss' engines, along with other products.
Fairbanks Co. On the other hand, supplied tools for the market and their own brand of gasoline engine called the 'Bulldog'. I have examples of both in my garage.
If that drill press is of the same quality as their Bulldog it's probably WAY overbuilt. I've never seen an example of their drill press in real life.might be fairly rare.That press looks to be worth every penny of the asking price and is about ten steps above any 'home owner' press from the big box stores. Once you learn the operation and begin using it you'll understand. I have a history of the Fairbanks Morse engine division (author C. Wendel) which has some brief comments on the beginnings of the firm.Charles Morse began as an apprentice with the E & T Fairbanks Co.
In 1850, he rose through the ranks and set up his own company in 1865 - Fairbanks, Morse & Co, Cincinnati, Ohio. He sold not only the Fairbanks scales, but products from other companies as well, e.g. Thanks, Peter S, and George.I have two of the 'thick catalogs.' The first is 'The Fairbanks Company, Illustrated Catalogue of Machine Tools, Wood Working Machinery, etc, for manufacturing palnts and machine shops,' dated 1907, 613 numbered pages, showing offices in 15 cities, four foreign and eleven domestic. Does not show Cincinnati or St.
Johnsbury.A 21` inch drill in this may well match the Rpyersford pattern.The second is 'The Canadian Fairbanks-Morse Company Limited Genereal Catalogue No. 25' from 1925, 804 numbered pages, showing 13 Canadian 'plants and branches.' It might or might not be interesting to note that the 'scale and valve factory' was in Sherbrooke, QC, which is not very far from St. Johnsbury, VT. The scales-to my unpracticed eye-look just like Fairbanks scales from St J, and are labelled 'Fairbanks.' The 21 inch drill here does not match the Royersford pattern.
The 21 inch drill here does not match the Royersford pattern.Dispute this if you like. When I called Royersford to inquire about parts, information and possible serial number for my 22' camelback, I was told the following. Machines never had a serial number assigned or recorded, any such tag or stamping was a dealer or end user add-on. Royerford did not cast frames for any other manufacturer, Champion, etc. They also continued to manufacture and innovate long after Champion ceased selling 'camelback' style drills.Royersford camelback frames are cast in one piece and the lower column portion finished on a (large) lathe. Are the Champion camelback frames one piece or two? Thanks to this thread, a little mystery from my boyhood is solved.
My late father had a machinist work bench in his shop when I was a kid. He got it from an oldtimer in about 1948, and that guy had retired from Sperry Gyroscope some years earlier. The bench was the classic, and had the cast iron 'bucks' or legs that have the front edge kicked out a bit further than the base feet.
The bench legs had the name 'Fairbanks' cast in them. They looked like any number of other 'classic' machinist bench leg castings, but the name 'Fairbanks' always had me wondering. I used to wonder if the legs had been part of a weighing machne (like a platform scale where wagons or trucks might be weighed).
As an engineer, I worked on Fairbanks-Morse diesel engines. Of course, I used to wonder about whether the Fairbanks in St Johnsbury, VT, who made the scales and F-M, who were in the midwest were connected in some way.
Now, seeing this thread about the drill press, I know 'which' Fairbanks made the legs and my old questions are answered.BTW: If I remember right, F-M took a stab at building diesel locomotives with their opposed-piston engines. The builder's plates on those locomotive bodies used to have a logo with a hand holding a hook with what looked like a scale weight. That used to set me to wondering if the scale maker and maker of warehouse trucks was tied in to F-M.Dad's old bench was given away when he sold his house in 1987.
It had the big wood drawer and built-up wood top. It had a 3' Athol machinist vise, which I kept and still have. I wish now I'd gotten those bench legs.As for the camelback drill, there were any number of makers of this type of drill press. Most followed a well-established design with only slight changes from one manufacturer to the next. Some manufacturers, as noted, built drill presses with other maker's names on them.
What always amazed me was how similar most of the camelback drill designs were. IMO, at 25 ft in bad light, it would be hard to tell them apart.I am a big proponent of having a camelback drill in one's shop. It is neither fast nor easy to set up, requiring attention to oiling and the belts. But it will add a great deal of drilling capacity with great rigidty for very little cost. And, it is a way to preserve and use a unique old machine tool. I keep mine ( Cincinnati Bickford) up in my garage so I can use it as part of blacksmith and steel fabrication jobs.
There simply is no comparing a modern 'round column' drill press with vee belt drive to a camelback. You can buy a modern drill rpess with # 3 MT spindle and put it up against a Camelback and you quickly realize the difference. The Camelback is a battleship, able to push anything that fits in its spindle through the work, without problem. A modern drill press has neither the rigidity nor the deep spindle speed reduction to begin to match the old camelback.
Every shop should have one.Joe MichaelsJoe Michaels. Dispute this if you like. When I called Royersford to inquire about parts, information and possible serial number for my 22' camelback, I was told the following. Machines never had a serial number assigned or recorded, any such tag or stamping was a dealer or end user add-on. Royerford did not cast frames for any other manufacturer, Champion, etc. They also continued to manufacture and innovate long after Champion ceased selling 'camelback' style drills.Royersford camelback frames are cast in one piece and the lower column portion finished on a (large) lathe. Are the Champion camelback frames one piece or two?Reggie;I think that what they told you is correct from the mid 1930's on, but not for before that.
In the 1910-1930 time frame, there were lots of Upright Drills that were similar in design, but there were at least three that seem to be nearly identical, down to the nuts and bolts. The only differences are the names cast into the side of the frames, and the design of the slots in the table. These are:1.) The Excelsior 20' (Assumed to be made by Royersford, although it doesn't actually say Royersford anywhere on it).2.) The Champion 203.) The Fairbanks 20Are there any others?I believe that those three machines were made by the same company in the 1910-1930's period.
I suspect that it was Royersford that made all of them, but maybe not?Then, in the late 1930's, Royersford took control of the design and improved it, releasing the Royersford Excelsior 21'. From then on, Royersford was the exclusive builder of that design, and didn't build for anyone else. By WWII, almost everyone else had stopped building 'camelback' style drills anyway. But Royersford kept going with them, and around 1950 (?) improved the design into the Royersford Excelsior 22'.That's my take on the history, anyway.By the way, since I just acquired my own (1940's) Royersford Excelsior 21' yesterday, I've been able to compare it up close to my (1920's) Excelsior 20'. There are a lot of small dimensional differences between them. Not many parts are actually interchangeable.
For example, the 21' column is 5 1/4' diameter, while the 20' column is 5'. Dispute this if you like. When I called Royersford to inquire about parts, information and possible serial number for my 22' camelback, I was told the following. Machines never had a serial number assigned or recorded, any such tag or stamping was a dealer or end user add-on. Royerford did not cast frames for any other manufacturer, Champion, etc. They also continued to manufacture and innovate long after Champion ceased selling 'camelback' style drills.Royersford camelback frames are cast in one piece and the lower column portion finished on a (large) lathe. Are the Champion camelback frames one piece or two?A Champion 20' drill, with the exception of the cast-in lettering and the table slots, is identical to a Royersford Excelsior 20'.
I have compared them side by side. And I don't use the term 'identical' lightly when comparing old machinery.How long ago did you call Royersford? I don't disbelieve what they told you, but I would not be too surprised if the current employees were not very well informed about machines made 100 years ago for other sellers.Bruce's description of the various Royersford drill press products agrees with what I have seen from examining quite a few of them.Andy. Northernsinger;Here are a couple of details I can add to the timeline discussion:All of the Royersford 21's that I've seen have the long base with the built in motor mount. Has anyone seen a 21' with the short base for lineshaft drive?The 20' models from Excelsior, Champion, and Fairbanks mostly have the short bases, but we've seen a few with long bases. That Champion on the other thread, for example, has the long base. So, the motor drive became optional during their time.This would lead me to believe that the Royersford 21 was introduced after the days of lineshafts, like the end of the 1930's.The column and the Y-frame head are all one casting on all of the Royersford 20', 21' and 22' models that I've seen.
I haven't seen a Champion or Fairbanks in person, but from the pictures, they also look to be one piece. The base of the 20' models is one piece with a cast-in collar that the column fits in to. The 21' and 22' models have a separate collar and flange casting that bolts down to the base.I guess we need to dig up some ads or brochures to clear up the dates. Northernsinger;Here are a couple of details I can add to the timeline discussion:All of the Royersford 21's that I've seen have the long base with the built in motor mount. Has anyone seen a 21' with the short base for lineshaft drive?The 20' models from Excelsior, Champion, and Fairbanks mostly have the short bases, but we've seen a few with long bases. That Champion on the other thread, for example, has the long base. So, the motor drive became optional during their time.This would lead me to believe that the Royersford 21 was introduced after the days of lineshafts, like the end of the 1930's.The column and the Y-frame head are all one casting on all of the Royersford 20', 21' and 22' models that I've seen.
I haven't seen a Champion or Fairbanks in person, but from the pictures, they also look to be one piece. The base of the 20' models is one piece with a cast-in collar that the column fits in to. The 21' and 22' models have a separate collar and flange casting that bolts down to the base.I guess we need to dig up some ads or brochures to clear up the dates.The Champion frame castings are identical to the Royersford castings (one piece) with the exception of the lettering.
I haven't seen a Fairbanks drill in person.I have a brochure that covers the 21' Excelsior drill and Excelsior Hack Saw. At that time, the 21' drill was offered with electric motor drive via vee belt, electric motor drive via spur gears, and line shaft drive with fast and loose pulleys. It is unfortunately undated, but I would guess it to be no earlier than late '30s, and probably later ('40s). Here are scans:I've never seen one with the gear drive setup.Andy. Bruce, that's good reasoning, thanks.I've just looked in my Royersford folder and the 'Lubrication Chart-Royersford Excelsior 21' Drill Press' that I took from the foundry when I bought the machines in 1985 shows a drawing of a countershaft with a flat belt step pulley and a tight and loose pulley (and a foot actuated shifting rod). I've just scanned this but am not able to reproduce it here (though I've just tried), don't know why.
The 'Parts List-Rpoyersford-Excelsior 21' Drill Press' also shows the tight/loose pulley and no motor.I think this kind of evidence -which is undated-could show either that 1), the 21' machine was made earlier than you posit, or 2), the lineshaft variation machine was made later than might be thought. So I'm not sure this proves anything. It may not even prove that Royersford actually made this variation of the machine.I'm surprised that the upper frame and the column are cast together; this doesn't seem easy to me. That parts diagram I have in the folder (which I think I've shared with others here before) however shows it as one part. Part no 20, called on the list 'housing.' I do see I've contributed to a drift away from the Fairbanks drill under the first question here and am sorry for this. XNoticeThis website or its third-party tools process personal data (e.g.
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